Urban Development and Proposals Discussion

[Silence&Motion]

The Victoria Park Station project (and this discussion) got me thinking, that Calgary's inner city has really got to commit to being a better pedestrian place with way less half-measures and compromises. I see no evidence here (or elsewhere) that 4 - 6 lane fast one-way thoroughfare couplets create better places or cities. You can't have both a car-prioritizing inner city and a pedestrian-prioritizing one.

The fact that Google Maps routinely routes me directly through the downtown core whenever I'm driving from the east side of the city to the west is the best explanation I can think of as to why our downtown is so dead and dreary. The entire area has been designed around a single priority: move as many cars as possible pass through the neighborhood as quickly as possible. They've been so successful in this goal that driving through downtown is often faster than taking 16 Ave, Memorial, or Glenmore.

 

[FCC1982]

I'm pretty sure he was talking about the current hideous fence being replaced by a fence that isn't hideous. I believe anyone on this forum understands the need for a fence, but design choice should be a lot more important to this city than it has been historically. Calgary has a shocking amount of chain link fences, most of them being in public space.

Yes exactly.
How about a continuous raised planter between the tracks and the sidewalk instead of a chain-link fence ?
Best option is to bury the tracks but I don't see that happenning anytime soon.

 

[Surrealplaces]

Yeah, I remember there being a discussion on covering the tracks, even just putting them in an uncovered duct, and there was some reason it wasn't feasible.

I don't mind the idea of a barrier between the station and road if it's something along the lines of planters. Maybe planters with gaps filled with wrought iron fence sections?

 

[Mountain Man]

I bet the city will stick with chain link. A planter wall sufficiently high to prevent people climbing over would look just as bad. Burying is the right answer, but the city has far bigger priorities when it comes to the Ctrain, so that will likely never happen.

 

[Meikkhaell]

We can all say "people should only use public transit, not cars!" and be all Kumbaya about everything, but face it, that's not how this society functions currently. You can say everyone should live in the downtown core and walk everywhere, that's not practical. I live in the NW, a 25 minute walk from the nearest c-train station. I have small kids, who, frankly, I don't want to subject to the rowdy, drunken crowd that takes the train after games. The idea that folks who, *gasp*, use CARS, deserve no sympathy is ridiculous. There's much more pollutive practices, many of which are relatively ignored. Tell me why restaraunts don't have access to compost services? Why do we still use styrofoam, like, at all? And while we complain about cars and Canadian pipelines, China has been quiety releasing banned CFCs into the atmosphere, which are more than 10,000x more potent than CO2.

The station looks nice. Just like everyone using the trains sounds nice. Practical? Not so sure.

 

[Silence&Motion]

We can all say "people should only use public transit, not cars!" and be all Kumbaya about everything, but face it, that's not how this society functions currently. You can say everyone should live in the downtown core and walk everywhere, that's not practical. I live in the NW, a 25 minute walk from the nearest c-train station. I have small kids, who, frankly, I don't want to subject to the rowdy, drunken crowd that takes the train after games. The idea that folks who, *gasp*, use CARS, deserve no sympathy is ridiculous. There's much more pollutive practices, many of which are relatively ignored. Tell me why restaraunts don't have access to compost services? Why do we still use styrofoam, like, at all? And while we complain about cars and Canadian pipelines, China has been quiety releasing banned CFCs into the atmosphere, which are more than 10,000x more potent than CO2.

The station looks nice. Just like everyone using the trains sounds nice. Practical? Not so sure.

I'm not sure what this message is responding to. No one said any of these things. I think the argument being made is that the new station design will make things significantly easier for pedestrians to get to and from VP station and the stampede grounds while having very little impact on traffic (given all the bottlenecks that already exist further north on Macleod). Even if there is an negative impact on travel times along Macleod, of all areas in the city, this seems to be a location where it is reasonable for drivers to make some concessions for the benefit of transit users and pedestrians.

 

[Patrick.1980]

I'm a car driver, and have kids, and totally understand the need for cars. People can say what they want about cars, but they make life so much easier, even more so, if you have children.

* Having said that, I still believe in the city's efforts for better transit and pedestrian realms. I lived in New York for almost a year, and never drove a car during that time. Most people I knew walked, took cabs or subway. Obviously Calgary''s not Manhattan, but once they build the Green Line, they'll have rail infrastructure into most areas of the city and can continue to build around the rail or BRT infrastructure, as well as improving transit to/from the rail stations. It's going to take time, and for sure the car isn't going away, but they can work toward a better balance.

We can all say "people should only use public transit, not cars!" and be all Kumbaya about everything, but face it, that's not how this society functions currently. You can say everyone should live in the downtown core and walk everywhere, that's not practical. I live in the NW, a 25 minute walk from the nearest c-train station. I have small kids, who, frankly, I don't want to subject to the rowdy, drunken crowd that takes the train after games. The idea that folks who, *gasp*, use CARS, deserve no sympathy is ridiculous. There's much more pollutive practices, many of which are relatively ignored. Tell me why restaraunts don't have access to compost services? Why do we still use styrofoam, like, at all? And while we complain about cars and Canadian pipelines, China has been quiety releasing banned CFCs into the atmosphere, which are more than 10,000x more potent than CO2.

The station looks nice. Just like everyone using the trains sounds nice. Practical? Not so sure.

 

[Meikkhaell]

I'm not sure what this message is responding to. No one said any of these things. I think the argument being made is that the new station design will make things significantly easier for pedestrians to get to and from VP station and the stampede grounds while having very little impact on traffic (given all the bottlenecks that already exist further north on Macleod). Even if there is an negative impact on travel times along Macleod, of all areas in the city, this seems to be a location where it is reasonable for drivers to make some concessions for the benefit of transit users and pedestrians.

UrbanWarrior a few pages back: "Yeah, I can't feel at all sorry for people in environmentally destructive, climate controlled boxes when the proposal is about prioritizing pedestrians. All at the same time making Stampede Park much more connected to the urban fabric and the whole immediate area much less visually hostile."

I totally agree with you guys that we should keep working to have better transit & whatnot, & this station LOOKS wayyy better than what we have now. But accusing me of being some careless environment destroyer because, God forbid, I drive a car, is over-the-top. I'd rather be taking the trains everywhere too, but they don't go where I need to go most of the time. Green Line will help for sure.

 

[UrbanWarrior]

I was playing into exactly what you guys were saying, about how horrible it is that traffic will see a minor impact from the slightest bit of pedestrian prioritization. We live in the most car-oriented city in the country, and yall are bitching about a few extra second of wait time, it's ridiculous. What's even more ridiculous is that we still have advanced greens for cars in our friggin downtown core. Literally the opposite of urbanity, and antithetical to having a walkable attractive downtown. Thankfully we're getting there despite these idiotic choices, but still, shit needs to change. Since drivers are in climate controlled boxes, obviously they should be waiting longer over those who are freezing their asses off while waiting at advanced greens, since our city is below zero for around half the year. How does this not make sense?

 

[Meikkhaell]

What you're saying makes sense, I'm pretty sure we all ultimately want better public transportation and more pedestrian prioritization. The fact that people who, by circumstance, are required to use cars are deserving of zero sympathy doesn't make sense. And, in other places, it might add a few extra seconds to commutes. But at least for me, I wait at the intersection of 25th and McLeod for 25 minutes every time I want to go to a game, and I wait in traffic along McLeod for an hour every time I leave. That's not a few extra seconds, that's ridiculousness.
Obviously, that traffic would be less if there were less cars, but that's not how things work unfortunately.
I hear you though, it would be nice if everything was perfect. But then we'd be left with nothing to talk about

 

[darwink]

What you're saying makes sense, I'm pretty sure we all ultimately want better public transportation and more pedestrian prioritization. The fact that people who, by circumstance, are required to use cars are deserving of zero sympathy doesn't make sense. And, in other places, it might add a few extra seconds to commutes. But at least for me, I wait at the intersection of 25th and McLeod for 25 minutes every time I want to go to a game, and I wait in traffic along McLeod for an hour every time I leave. That's not a few extra seconds, that's ridiculousness.
Obviously, that traffic would be less if there were less cars, but that's not how things work unfortunately.
I hear you though, it would be nice if everything was perfect. But then we'd be left with nothing to talk about

The intersection won't really effect game time traffic though. It is constrained by bottlenecks beyond the immediate network more than anything. If anything, it will improve traffic flow marginally.

A big thing will be that the Stampede will need to abandon manned parking attendants at the parking gates. The Stampede has manned gates because of wanting to maintain 'western hospitality', not any technical reasons. The city refused to connect 17th Ave if it had manned parking gates as a flow constraint. So the Stampede is likely to put in place a fixed Park Plus or similar system. This will help inflows.

Outflows will always be bad because they aren't really spread out at all.

 

[retrofiturbanism]

We can all say "people should only use public transit, not cars!" and be all Kumbaya about everything, but face it, that's not how this society functions currently. You can say everyone should live in the downtown core and walk everywhere, that's not practical. I live in the NW, a 25 minute walk from the nearest c-train station. I have small kids, who, frankly, I don't want to subject to the rowdy, drunken crowd that takes the train after games. The idea that folks who, *gasp*, use CARS, deserve no sympathy is ridiculous. There's much more pollutive practices, many of which are relatively ignored. Tell me why restaraunts don't have access to compost services? Why do we still use styrofoam, like, at all? And while we complain about cars and Canadian pipelines, China has been quiety releasing banned CFCs into the atmosphere, which are more than 10,000x more potent than CO2.

The station looks nice. Just like everyone using the trains sounds nice. Practical? Not so sure.

Nobody is saying that you are not allowed to drive. Nor are we denying your ability to do so. What we are saying is that prioritizing pedestrians and transit is better for everyone. Not everyone can take the train or walk, but by making it easier for many to do so, it means that less people have to drive, which means less cars you have to compete with.

 

[Surrealplaces]

Sometimes a picture tells a thousand words.The Beltline is really starting to take on a big city dense look.

Full sized image Here

 

[retrofiturbanism]

What you're saying makes sense, I'm pretty sure we all ultimately want better public transportation and more pedestrian prioritization. The fact that people who, by circumstance, are required to use cars are deserving of zero sympathy doesn't make sense. And, in other places, it might add a few extra seconds to commutes. But at least for me, I wait at the intersection of 25th and McLeod for 25 minutes every time I want to go to a game, and I wait in traffic along McLeod for an hour every time I leave. That's not a few extra seconds, that's ridiculousness.
Obviously, that traffic would be less if there were less cars, but that's not how things work unfortunately.
I hear you though, it would be nice if everything was perfect. But then we'd be left with nothing to talk about

Again, you are using the most inefficient method of transportation in a scenario where 1000s of people are trying to leave a single place all at the same time. Guess, what, we can't move hundresds of cars through an intersection at every cycle. No matter what you do, you cannot move that many vehicles that quickly. The best way to get a large number of people out of a single place in a short amount of time is walking and transit. This is a fundamental law of transportation planning. If you drive a car to a large sporting event, you just have to be an adult and accept the consequences of your decision. Yes, you have to wait longer, but you have kids and you don't want to take the train. That is your choice. There are consequences to your choice and you have to accept them. That consequence is having to wait a long time to exit, because literally thousands of others are trying to do the same, and there is only so much space to allow them to do it. At some point you just have to accept that traffic is a thing and you have to deal with it.

 

[Chinook Arch]

Just because someone vents about traffic and driving doesn't mean they don't understand the concept or benefits of transit. I'm in a situation where I have to drive a fair bit, and it's a pain in the butt. I'd love to take transit, for everything, but it's not feasible right now, so I drive, and I vent about the traffic. I think many people people around the city are in the same boat - stuck having to drive. It doesn't make them evil polluters sitting in their climate controlled cars. It's the unfortunate reality of many north American cities. Yes, it's a choice not to take your kids on the train everywhere, but it's also not feasible to do so, and actually in many cases, not even possible. Until Calgary evolves into a denser city with better transit options, large numbers of people will rely on car.
For the record, I'm all for increasing and improving transit. I'm a strong believer in transit and cycle paths, etc... I'm not in love with driving, it's only something that makes life feasible at the moment. I'd love to work downtown and take the train, but unfortunately I don't work downtown, and in my line of business, that's not going to happen. I'd love to live downtown so that I could walk to more things, but it's hard trying to find a decent place for a family of four on my income. The suburbs are what works best.

Again, you are using the most inefficient method of transportation in a scenario where 1000s of people are trying to leave a single place all at the same time. Guess, what, we can't move hundresds of cars through an intersection at every cycle. No matter what you do, you cannot move that many vehicles that quickly. The best way to get a large number of people out of a single place in a short amount of time is walking and transit. This is a fundamental law of transportation planning. If you drive a car to a large sporting event, you just have to be an adult and accept the consequences of your decision. Yes, you have to wait longer, but you have kids and you don't want to take the train. That is your choice. There are consequences to your choice and you have to accept them. That consequence is having to wait a long time to exit, because literally thousands of others are trying to do the same, and there is only so much space to allow them to do it. At some point you just have to accept that traffic is a thing and you have to deal with it.